After an interesting play session last Friday, something occurred to me:
Fourth edition truly puts the nail in the coffin of Vancian magic. The wizard I ran in that game felt much more like a traditional fantasy wizard. I felt very Gandalf, at least in terms of combat, and rituals had my back when it came to other tasks. Very fun.
I suppose that’s one of the things, though, that some folks don’t like about 4E: the abandoning of the Vancian system.
I’m interested, though: What do you all think? Whether or not you like 4E, are there good reasons to go with a “fire and forget” spell system? Do you personally prefer Vancian magic to the alternatives?
{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
If resource management and thinking of the dungeon as an element of gaming are your things, Vancian magic is pretty good subsystem. (4e considers encounter as the element of adventuring. 3rd edition was not sure, which caused problems here and there.)
Tommis last blog post..The nature of fiction
I’m very glad Vancian magic has gone the way of the dodo, and 4e’s system does a good enough job of filling the void. Count that as a win for 4e.
greywulfs last blog post..Character du Jour: The Red Knight
I don’t really consider it gone from 4e. It’s just been tweaked into three tiers. The most powerful spells are still under the old once a day system, and have to be renewed with a six hour rest. Encounter powers can be renewed with a 5 min rest, and only cantrips and a pair of at-wills can be cast over and over.
Patriarch917s last blog post..The Evil Dungeon Master
Vancian magic is indeed now gone, despite the existence of Daily powers, and it’s a good thing. Since the very first time I ever played D&D, while I loved the game, the Vancian magic system has always rankled as counter-intuitive and wildly unbalanced (too weak or too strong, never just right). 4e has managed to keep the interesting aspects of resource management (through the existence of Daily powers and Daily item powers), add an additional element (Encounter powers), and provide things everyone can always do (At-will powers).
It’s good and bad, good that it’s gone. The Vancian magic system was unwieldy for newcomers, obnoxious in play as characters approached high levels, and broke any spell-dependant class’s leveling curve, since you can be sure they’d be laughable at level 1 and godly by the end.
However, the Powers system that replaced it created a homogenization of play styles, good for a fighter that wants to dip his toe in Warlock land, bad for a mage who wants to feel distinct from everybody else. That’s what we lost from 3e casting, and an adaptation of the Vancian system that made wizards more tactical than other classes would have been a better idea. Currently the most tactical class is the Warlord, and too many of his abilities make no sense if you’re not playing with minis.
I have always disliked Vancian casting. The earliest D&D games I DMmed in 2e I allwed my players to choose off the spell list at will, so they didn’t have to prepare in advance. Sure, that took out some of the tactical thought of a 2e/3e caster, and it probably made the classes more powerful/flexible than they were intended, but it was easier and felt more realistic to me.
Later, I developed my own homebrew magic rules, which, while I liked them and several of my players did as well, not everyone did. 4e is a nice compromise, and none of our players has complained yet about it being limiting or too powerful.
I’m not going to say that 4e casting is the best casting system ever, but it beats Vancian.
Reaperbryans last blog post..Reaper’s Halloween Open House
@ Tommi – I can see what you’re saying here, for sure. Some folks enjoy resource management a lot more than others. For me, I like the idea of the encounter (both combat and noncombat) as the element of adventuring.
@ Greywulf – I agree. 4E does the best I’ve seen so far at filling that void. Ideally, I’d like a good spell point system, but I’ve not seen one yet that I really thought would work. I’m not sure it’s possible.
@ Patriarch – A cool-down period is a far cry, though, from full-blown memorization, at least in my book. Still, I think you can make a good case that there are perhaps remnants of Vancian magic in 4E.
@ Nik – Careful, or some of the trolls will pop up and call you a bad names. Haven’t you heard? Praising 4E outright is a major no-no. (Kidding, of course.)
@ Marcus – Unwieldy is a great word. I would say this, though: I’ve never played a 3E game without minis. I think you’d have a hell of a time with any combat in 3E without mins. I realize people do it, but the 3E rules don’t make much sense to me without them either.
@ Bryan – I created a 2E version of something similar to the sorcerer in 3E – choose spells on the fly, but fewer spells known. It didn’t work for me. It worked OK in 3E with the sorcerer, but I really like 4E’s take on things better than either of those.
Don’t like the new 4E. Vancian system had a few problems, but not near as bad as 4E for my taste. But I would like a return to 2E.
Vancian magic was another of those many pulp fantasy references Gygax built into D&D. If you think of D&D as an essentially literary game intent on capturing the flavor of those novels, then the loss of Vancian magic is a very bad thing, another step down the line towards becoming a game about those (IMO) awful D&D novels.
But a bit part of the problem with it is that, after Gygax, few of D&D’s developers really understood how to best create spells for that system. To really understand Vancian magic, one really must read Vance, the Dying Earth series to be precise. They’re quite good. (Mind, only the first one really focuses on the magic system, and then only the first half or so. It’s really a collection of short stories more than a coherent novel.)
I have played 4E and I can say that for the most part, it’s not for me. I’ll play it again, but it goes into the category that I place a lot of games: I’ll play it if it happens, but it’s not my Go-To game.
As far as whether the removal of Vancian magic is a Good Thing, I would say “it depends.” A lot of GMs have house-ruled various replacements for years with spell points, mana, use of HP to fuel magic and others. The ability has always been there.
Much of older D&D was about pulp and it was about whimsy. I find that Vancian magic fits very nicely in that category. I never saw D&D having to be realistic or have good reasons for Vancian mechanics. I always see magic as a living, breathing thing that mages make an uneasy peace with. To me, Vancian seems to enforce that much more than “At-Will” and “Daily” powers. In those cases, magic has just become another arrow or bullet – nothing special.
I find the use of Vancian magic is just as reflective of Gandalf as is a spell point system. Gandalf can always wield a sword via house rules. Gandalf’s exact spell casting mechanics was never spelled out by JRRT. I think that is for the best because then we’d be doing it that way.
I dumped the Vancian magic in 1986 in favor of the system in GURPS Fantasy 1e and eventually wrote a bunch of house rules to allow others to use the GURPS magic system (and later systems) in D&D.
I’ve never liked the D&D magic system. I typically play other classes, because I don’t like messing with it — I really liked the tactical options for 3e rogues (especially the noncombat ones), for example.
In 4e, not only have they made a magic system that seems workable and tactically coherent, it puts the different classes on a more level playing field, and provides more analogous tactical options all around. When you throw in the fact that you can play a Druid and fill the Controller role of a Wizard, I would call it a big win (for me).
And yeah, I know liking 4e isn’t trendy, but I couldn’t care less. A more consistent system for resolving game mechanics = more time and energy left over for role playing.
4e does a valiant effort at replacing the Vancian magic system. While I greatly dislike the flavour and specificity of class powers (all geared toward combat, basically) I do appreciate the simplicity of the system.
I’m more upset over the ‘gaminess’ of the class powers. The mechanics make it feel very much like an MMORPG, and the powers are much narrower in their application. Spells like Grease and Create Water, which had a million and one uses and encouraged creative thought and problem solving, have been replaced by insta-buffs and one round effects that limit player and DM thinking to inside-the-box tactics. The limited number of powers available (only four dailies and four encounters max) also impede creativity, as opposed to 3e (our party’s bard currently has access to almost twenty spells, and he uses them all quite cleverly).
I’m not saying I dislike the new system. I think it’s a great idea. I just wish they hadn’t changed so much else along with it.
I miss the Vancian system. I liked that spellcasters were different, they stood apart from the crowd. in 4e, everyone has powers, and the fighter feels little different from a mage in many ways: pushing and pulling opponents and exact positioning on the board are the most important elements of combat now.
While the combat system is supposed to have been sped up (which it has when minis are used) it has been slowed down, precisely because minis must be used now. Every encounter requires careful placement and arrangement of figures. I digress.
Since d&d has been around so long, it does not need to feel more like other fantasy works. I feel a little lost since 4e resembles so little of what I have been used to since AD&D in many ways. The Vancian system was an integral part of that feel and without it, mages seem very limited. Most spells are only looked at as combat related and the “rituals” do not have the same feel as similar spells in 3.5. Utility spells, which are supposed to make up the gap, still do not have the same application.
The system for wizards worked really well for both NPC wizards as enemies and allies as well as PC wizards. The new system is good for newbies and for a quick game. I see them as totally different games to be enjoyed for different purposes. I play both 4e and 3.5e concurrently.
Big fan of the Vancian system, love the resource management element of it, love memorization. Do not like 4th edition, but hey I have all the books so I really hope everyone who likes 4e enjoys it as much as I have earlier editions. I wished 4e would have kept the vancian magic system and had started using reserve feats more from 3.5E. I think they had a good idea with 4e trying to make sure the wizard always had something to do then got carried away with it.
Imo 4e is just… awful. Seriously – if I wanted to play an arcade game I’d go to an arcade. What happened to everything that fostered thinking? What happened to all the things that aren’t to do with battle? I think that everything that made D&D really great died with 4e. I’m staying with 3.5…
@Voidshard – And that has exactly what to do with Vancian Magic? You know, the point of this post?
In the post, I asked, “Whether or not you like 4E, are there good reasons to go with a “fire and forget” spell system? Do you personally prefer Vancian magic to the alternatives?”
You didn’t answer that question.
Seriously, if folks want to complain about how much they dislike 4E, go somewhere else. I like the game. Lots of folks do.
I’m tired, people. Tired of edition wars. Everyone just go back to your corners, and play the game of your choosing. It’s OK for us to have differences of opinions.
There are areas we can dialogue – let’s talk about specific issues (like Vancian magic). Let’s see if we can’t get past the “your game sucks,” “no, your game sucks” crap, shall we?
@Bob
Well honestly I think it has everything to do with it – by my way of thinking the whole 4e combat/magic system is the Vancian magic system universally applied (to be explained below).
But! *before you start typing an answer to that* slow down a tad. I’m not trying to start a war – I honestly don’t subscribe to any ‘edition wars’ (actually I’m not fond of the whole internet message board thing…a point very much lost considering I’m posting this on a message board but hey! What can you do?). But I accept that my post is *very* lacking in detail, hence making it seem most unhelpful and very irrelivant – for that I must and do apologise and I shall write what I should have written before.
A better explaination is in order. Generally by way of inference my slander of 4e is ment to press my answer to the “Do you personally prefer Vancian magic to the alternatives?” – obviously, the answer in my opinion is no.
Still you aren’t looking for a one word answer so -
“Are there good reasons to go with a “fire and forget” spell system?”
Of course, I do not mean to say that there are NO reasons not to like the Vancian system, as with all things (or most things) there are pros and cons. Its easy to keep track of ones spells if all of them are once per day (or if there are few divisions of spells – once/encounter/will – only three types and easy to control) – write them out on scrap paper each “day” and if they aren’t crossed off then you can use them. Simple. Hard to imagine though. I mean, I read quite a bit of fantasy (all I can really but there is always more to read and never enough time!) and a magic user that complains “I can’t because I’ve cast that already today” is both ‘unlikely’ and pretty pathetic… Particularly when very feeble reasons are presented as to why one can’t cast again – he forgets. Yes boys and girls everyone who practices magic no matter how intelligent -even the Gods- suffer amnesia at the most inconvienent times…even though they just recited it a second ago… *cough* no it’s not just to keep the game balance what are you talking about?!
I slander 4e in this instance (not because I see an oppotunity to do so and want to get a chip in for my side or anything) for it’s degredation of all classes in to the same ‘flaw’. Where the old Vancian system was limited to just some classes’ spells before, it now seems to have grown a hybrid form and have taken over the game altogether. I’m thinking here that regardless of the new “at will” and “per encounter” titles the spell system pretty much remains, gaining only a small measure of credence and losing a lot more.
To illustrate the point and further the general damnation I submit that the ’spell’ system is now applied to combat in general – a serious error in a Fire and Forget system by my thinking. Ok you define “spell” system in 4e and I do not, but you must admit, the definition between a caster and a fighter grows very thin. The list of fighter ‘abilites’ is removed from Wizard ’spells’ only by name and power level. So a fighter in 4e can’t swing his weapon in such a way again right now why? He forgets? His arm is tired? And yet he can perform an even more fantastic move instead? …um… ok. Amazing! He is to ‘tired’ to swing his sword in a large arc again but he can do a backflip/slash/whirlwind *thing* instead. Who would have thought huh?!
Yes there are reasons to use a Fire and Forget system (more than just the one I have listed I am sure), but no I do not think they are enough and they seriously damage the credence of a game – even a fantasy one should attempt to maintain some logic (obviously this is up to personal preference and I really do not care to argue with anyone about this I am just stating my views, in your own mind you are master and I have no wish to change anyone). Hence no I do not prefer the Vancian system or any derivations of it, to the alternatives. Hence my answer to “Whether or not you like 4E” in terms of the Vancian system would be no.
@Voidshard: You are confusing the simulationist 3.5 rules with the metagame 4E rules.
Vancian Magic was “in character.” From the point of view of the Characters, if they were discussing the metaphysics of magic in their world, they would understand it as something like “You memorize this arcane rite from a book, and this memory in your mind is charged with power. When you invoke it, that power is released along with that memory. You have to re-study it again after a night’s rest.”
That is not the case for 4E. At-will/Encounter/Dailies are metagame mechanics. They exist for us, the Players, NOT for the characters’ IC POV. 4E characters are not supposed to think “Wow, I can only swing my sword REALLY hard once a day so I better save it.” It is more along the line of watching a movie where the hero is battling against all odds, and somehow comes through with that killing blow or whatever at the last minute. It is for our benefit watching the adventure.
Now, it isn’t TOTALLY gone in 4E. Certainly the Wizard does maintain a certain element of that. Some of his powers are “memorized” In Character, as it were, and there is still a spellbook mechanic. But I believe those are more nods to the genre conventions than anything else.
I both like and dislike Vancian magic. I think it gave a strong illusion of adaptability, but it was also very unbalanced at times. I mean, your mileage may vary, but Clerics almost always had to memorize Cures for most of their slots. When they made the rule allowing them to memorize other spells and “default” them to Cures it helped some. But in a lot of other ways I think it just really helped make the game more about resource management than fantasy.