Vancian Magic and Dungeons and Dragons 4E
September 4, 2008 · Filed Under Dungeons and Dragons
After an interesting play session last Friday, something occurred to me:
Fourth edition truly puts the nail in the coffin of Vancian magic. The wizard I ran in that game felt much more like a traditional fantasy wizard. I felt very Gandalf, at least in terms of combat, and rituals had my back when it came to other tasks. Very fun.
I suppose that’s one of the things, though, that some folks don’t like about 4E: the abandoning of the Vancian system.
I’m interested, though: What do you all think? Whether or not you like 4E, are there good reasons to go with a “fire and forget” spell system? Do you personally prefer Vancian magic to the alternatives?
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8 Responses to “Vancian Magic and Dungeons and Dragons 4E”
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If resource management and thinking of the dungeon as an element of gaming are your things, Vancian magic is pretty good subsystem. (4e considers encounter as the element of adventuring. 3rd edition was not sure, which caused problems here and there.)
Tommis last blog post..The nature of fiction
I’m very glad Vancian magic has gone the way of the dodo, and 4e’s system does a good enough job of filling the void. Count that as a win for 4e.
greywulfs last blog post..Character du Jour: The Red Knight
I don’t really consider it gone from 4e. It’s just been tweaked into three tiers. The most powerful spells are still under the old once a day system, and have to be renewed with a six hour rest. Encounter powers can be renewed with a 5 min rest, and only cantrips and a pair of at-wills can be cast over and over.
Patriarch917s last blog post..The Evil Dungeon Master
Vancian magic is indeed now gone, despite the existence of Daily powers, and it’s a good thing. Since the very first time I ever played D&D, while I loved the game, the Vancian magic system has always rankled as counter-intuitive and wildly unbalanced (too weak or too strong, never just right). 4e has managed to keep the interesting aspects of resource management (through the existence of Daily powers and Daily item powers), add an additional element (Encounter powers), and provide things everyone can always do (At-will powers).
It’s good and bad, good that it’s gone. The Vancian magic system was unwieldy for newcomers, obnoxious in play as characters approached high levels, and broke any spell-dependant class’s leveling curve, since you can be sure they’d be laughable at level 1 and godly by the end.
However, the Powers system that replaced it created a homogenization of play styles, good for a fighter that wants to dip his toe in Warlock land, bad for a mage who wants to feel distinct from everybody else. That’s what we lost from 3e casting, and an adaptation of the Vancian system that made wizards more tactical than other classes would have been a better idea. Currently the most tactical class is the Warlord, and too many of his abilities make no sense if you’re not playing with minis.
I have always disliked Vancian casting. The earliest D&D games I DMmed in 2e I allwed my players to choose off the spell list at will, so they didn’t have to prepare in advance. Sure, that took out some of the tactical thought of a 2e/3e caster, and it probably made the classes more powerful/flexible than they were intended, but it was easier and felt more realistic to me.
Later, I developed my own homebrew magic rules, which, while I liked them and several of my players did as well, not everyone did. 4e is a nice compromise, and none of our players has complained yet about it being limiting or too powerful.
I’m not going to say that 4e casting is the best casting system ever, but it beats Vancian.
Reaperbryans last blog post..Reaper’s Halloween Open House
@ Tommi - I can see what you’re saying here, for sure. Some folks enjoy resource management a lot more than others. For me, I like the idea of the encounter (both combat and noncombat) as the element of adventuring.
@ Greywulf - I agree. 4E does the best I’ve seen so far at filling that void. Ideally, I’d like a good spell point system, but I’ve not seen one yet that I really thought would work. I’m not sure it’s possible.
@ Patriarch - A cool-down period is a far cry, though, from full-blown memorization, at least in my book. Still, I think you can make a good case that there are perhaps remnants of Vancian magic in 4E.
@ Nik - Careful, or some of the trolls will pop up and call you a bad names. Haven’t you heard? Praising 4E outright is a major no-no. (Kidding, of course.)
@ Marcus - Unwieldy is a great word. I would say this, though: I’ve never played a 3E game without minis. I think you’d have a hell of a time with any combat in 3E without mins. I realize people do it, but the 3E rules don’t make much sense to me without them either.
@ Bryan - I created a 2E version of something similar to the sorcerer in 3E - choose spells on the fly, but fewer spells known. It didn’t work for me. It worked OK in 3E with the sorcerer, but I really like 4E’s take on things better than either of those.
Don’t like the new 4E. Vancian system had a few problems, but not near as bad as 4E for my taste. But I would like a return to 2E.